Theoretical seminar (17./18.10.23) at the TECHNICAL UNIVERSITY OF SOFIA / FACULTY OF MANAGEMENT / HUMANITIES AND LAW DEPARTMENT
An interview with Prof. Dr. Ulrich Klüh, Darmstadt University and Associate professor Dr. Yoana Pavlova, Technical University of Sofia
1. "Think human first" – what does this mean to you?
Klüh, Ulrich, Prof. Dr., Darmstadt University: The EUT+ slogan "Think human first" should be a constant reminder that the socio-ecological transformation is always in danger to fall into the trap of the "techno fix", the belief that new technologies will be the crucial element in resolving the pressing problems of our time. Technology might be able to play a productive role when it comes to climate change, loss of biodiversity, and increasing socio-economic tensions. But the more we believe in it, the less we invest in what is really needed: a focus on , first, the logics of the "critical zone", the ecosystems in which life on earth are enabled, second, a critical reflection of power relations, and ,third, the paradoxical nature of progress and the dialectics of enlightenment. To become truly transformative implies escaping our modernist biases. To think about the "human" first can be very fruitful in this regard, but only if this thinking is characterized by looking at humanity's role in creating the ruins of capitalism that we now have to survive in.
Yoana Pavlova, Associate professor, Dr., Technical University of Sofia: In my opinion, the meaning of the phrase is multi-layered... The human being should be placed at the centre as in Leonardo da Vinci's Vitruvian Man. The aim is that every activity, from the production of clothes, household appliances, telephones, etc., to the adoption of laws and policies, should be thought of in terms of human welfare. Rethinking human well-being, which is mainly seen as the satisfaction of material needs, must be seen in a much broader context. Man is part of an ecosystem and his well-being is unthinkable without maintaining a balance with his environment, both social and natural.
2. How should we implement the human-nature-technology relationship?
Klüh, Ulrich, Prof. Dr., Darmstadt University: My own thinking on this question has been strongly influenced by a book by Anna Tsing, called the "Mushroom at the end of the world". It takes what many would call a neo-materialist perspective. Tsing's analysis has its own complexities, but in essence, it starts from the observation that we can talk beautifully about what humans are able to bear and achieve while at the same time accepting their entanglements with nature and technology. Taking into account that matter and technology have actor qualities, and questioning the idea that human beings should be seen as subjects and individuals equipped with "free will" does not debase us in any way. I know this sounds very abstract, but I believe it can be made more palpable by looking at the way many more traditional collectives have conceived the human-nature-technology relationship. For example, by referring to concepts such as Pachamama in the case of the cosmology of Andean indigenous populations. Or by describing our time as the Capitalocene, which following Jason Moore, can be described as a system of power, profit and re/production in the web of life. I would prefer such descriptions over those referring to an Anthropocene, as the latter always involves the danger to make humans "the measure of all things".
Yoana Pavlova, Associate professor, Dr., Technical University of Sofia: In the earliest historical records, we have evidence of the human desire to create new inventions and technologies. The dreams of creating the moving machines of antiquity, the flying machines of the Renaissance, but only with the Industrial Revolution, which began in the 18th c.,. the prerequisites for the mass development of various real technologies were created. The initial impulse towards invention, the accumulation of capital, was without thought of the possible negative effects on the environment and man. Mankind is in a sufficiently developed phase where it is imperative to think about the environment because natural resources are finite and we depend on nature. Man-nature technology is a trinity that sets the parameters of sustainable development.
3. Is the political (State) involvement of (individual State, general policies) the basis of social development?
Klüh, Ulrich, Prof. Dr., Darmstadt University: In my view: Absolutely. The neo-materialist perspective has long suffered from a lack of "political rationality", in the way people like Chantal Mouffe and Ernesto Laclau conceive these terms. In fact, they have been seen as being in contradiction to each other. By rightly focusing on matter and laying bare the deficits of historical materialism, neo-materialism has underestimated the need to find a place in which we as human collectives can play a role in the bigger context of things. For me, this place is and remains the "polis", the locus of the "political". The "political" can be seen as something that neither technology nor complex entanglements can constitute, only old-fashioned humans with "political passions" and the ability to come up and live with paradox, especially the so called "political paradox". And these humans need to be based in a territory that they can conceive as "their" collective territory, and that territory can only be understood by combining the term "political" with the term "ecology". It is therefore not surprising that Bruno Latour, perhaps the most prominent representative of "political ecology" has, briefly before his death, has published a book that is very political, as it talks about the emergence of new ecological class conflict, and what is more political than that?
Yoana Pavlova, Associate professor, Dr., Technical University of Sofia: The political engagement of people has occupied the minds of philosophers since antiquity. Aristotle considered political participation to be the highest good, providing the citizen (man) with the opportunity to express himself defend his position, and participate in decision-making. In the context of modernity, such day-to-day participation in the agora is not possible, but we should not follow or put too much trust in representative democracy. Each one of us must monitor whether and to what extent the commitments and promises made by those in power are being fulfilled. The manifestation of a 'civic conscience' is at the heart of social development, because, after all, 'man is a social animal'.
4. Is man really the measure of all things in our world?
Klüh, Ulrich, Prof. Dr., Darmstadt University: This is a very philosophical question, and I am not sure whether I have read and reflected enough about it already to give a sensible answer. I admit that I like to read Heidegger and to some extent believe that humans are indeed "shepherds of being". But I have a limited understanding of these things. So my current answer can only be based on a pragmatic reflection on what is needed to reduce the amount of suffering that will come upon us a s a result of the ecological crisis we are facing. To survive in the ruins of capitalism, I think we need to combine the thoughts of those criticizing the view that man is the measure of all things with the thoughts of those that talk sensibly about what it means to be "political", which I cannot conceive without human passions as "the" measure of what we are willing to bring into the founding of a sustainable collective of all things. The big question is how we can escape the inherent contradiction between these two preconditions for survival. I find a lot of good answers in what the Italian philosopher Giorgio Agamben, whose work in my view asks a similar question, calls archeology, a search for the beginnings which give birth to something and then command its history.
Again, to make it a little less abstract: It is a little bit like in the joke in which planet earth meats another planet. The other planet asks planet earth why it appears to be so sick, and planet earth says: "I am really sick, I have a disease called mankind". Whereupon the other planet replies: "Don't worry, it will go away soon". I actually do not think that mankind will go away soon, I think the current situation is strongly about the question who is going to not laugh about this joke at the end.
Yoana Pavlova, Associate professor, Dr., Technical University of Sofia: The ancient Greek philosopher and sophist Protagoras said - "Man is the measure of all things, of things existing, that they exist, and of things not existing, that they do not exist", which puts man in the role of the creator of his world and as such he is also its measure. Man is a subject with his thoughts, feelings, and values based on which he evaluates every social action and interaction.
5. Is the Green Deal possible without Green Brain?
Klüh, Ulrich, Prof. Dr., Darmstadt University: I would go even further. A green brain is a necessary but not sufficient condition for the Green Deal to become truly transformative. What we need is a green political consciousness, and both the term "political" and the term "consciousness" transcend worldviews that are too much focused on our little human brains viewed in isolation from matter, mushrooms and all the other brains out there.
Yoana Pavlova, Associate professor, Dr., Technical University of Sofia: The implementation of the Green Deal is unthinkable without undertaking the necessary legal and regulatory changes on the one hand, and the other, it is important to enforce them with policies and strategies. The implementation of any policy is more successful when more people accept it as a value. I do believe that if we are all better informed and more aware of the necessity of taking appropriate action, the more successful the changes will be.
